tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839396737741964650.post5055847957635226000..comments2022-12-08T03:00:04.410-08:00Comments on Musing among the vegetables: Human rights, China and the boycott of the OlympicsPaul Milovanovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08541997741858618874noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839396737741964650.post-13066265364081070272008-04-11T08:02:00.000-07:002008-04-11T08:02:00.000-07:00You're perfectly right, the potential absence of G...You're perfectly right, the potential absence of God doesn't have to necessarily mean absence of universality of values. And I completely agree that the genetic/behavioral argument is our best bet for an argument for universality of values.<BR/><BR/>I guess one of the main points that I was trying to make is, what in the world gives us the right for being so full of ourselves about our "achievements" in respecting human rights? Granted, certain individuals in our society at certain points of time may've made conscious choices about the direction we'd choose -- but the environment and the socioeconomic context has made these changes easier.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, I absolutely agree that we have no right whatsoever to tell China what to do, and unless we want to crawl up in a corner and cut off relations with everybody who's less cute and fluffy than a box of kittens, we must go out and treat China with respect.<BR/><BR/>Of course, an obvious counterargument is, are we supposed to step in when we observe a genocide in progress? I do think scale and quantity matter,-- but it is still a hard decision to make. Remember Rick from Casablanca: "I don't stick out my neck for nobody". Let's just say that the likes of politicians urging the boycott of Chinese Olympics today did nothing to stop a genocide in Cambodia or Rwanda. That's because intervening in a genocide is hard and bloody and costly, and boycotting Olympics is easy and good for the ego.<BR/><BR/>Thirdly, on the subject of Olympics being silly... it's first and foremost a ceremony, and also one which, despite all the politics around it, might be valuable insofar as it allows an American athlete to see what a real Iranian athlete looks like :) I don't think I mind ceremonies too much.Paul Milovanovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08541997741858618874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839396737741964650.post-50139950289667562572008-04-11T08:01:00.000-07:002008-04-11T08:01:00.000-07:00A couple of points:First, you're not quite correct...A couple of points:<BR/><BR/>First, you're not quite correct in you relativism argument. You're essentially equating lack of proof for God, with lack of proof of universal values. Firstly, to quote you: absence of proof, isn't proof of absence. Second, even if there is no God, there may well be some kind of other universality of values. One such universality is certainly our common genetic heritage. There is no question in my mind that our morality has been evolving with us and is now, at least partially, rooted in our genetics. In our existential age that's as close as you're likely to get to universality.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, how to affect a society begs a question: what right do we have to affect a society like China? This is of course a gray area since the concept of "us" versus "them" is relative at best, but just because there is a gray middle, doesn't mean you don't have some pretty dark and light ends. Let's agree that Torontonians, Ottawans and so on for the most part basically know nothing about a place, half way around the world, speaking a different language, coping with problems that we can't even imagine. Let's put it this way: if you want to criticize China, the least you can do is learn Chinese first.<BR/><BR/>Thirdly, what is a nation state anyway and why should nationhood equate with independence? Tibet should be independent! Kosovo should be independent! Abkhazia should be independent! What? Oh, no! They're Russian backed! What about the Macedonian Albanians? What about the Cree in Quebec? What about Quebec? And what does independence mean in a world of international law, inter-dependence, international and non governmental organizations and so on. Is this moral issue or a governance issue?<BR/><BR/>Finally, boycotting the Olympics is irrelevant, because the games themselves are stupid. First the whole idea of grown-ups taking snowboarding seriously is ridiculous. Second if they do take them seriously, is there any reason why they have to compete with judges handing out medals to the "best" of them? Lastly, if they must compete, do they have to compete under of all things a country's flag? But no, the Games aren't political, are they?<BR/><BR/>So: Even if values are universal, we don't know squat, knowing more still wouldn't give us the right to interfere, the issue isn't clear-cut anyway, and the proposed solution is silly.<BR/><BR/>GL - <A HREF="http://gl.mimino.org" REL="nofollow">GL.Mimino.Org</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com